WEBVTT 00:00:07.438 --> 00:00:10.168 >> Hello and welcome to the Haskell Weekly podcast. 00:00:10.408 --> 00:00:12.128 I'm your, host Taylor Fausak. 00:00:12.328 --> 00:00:15.418 I'm the Director of Software Engineering at ACI Learning. 00:00:15.928 --> 00:00:19.108 And I'm very excited because today we have a special guest: 00:00:19.228 --> 00:00:22.738 Andrew Boardman, the Executive Director of the Haskell Foundation. 00:00:23.098 --> 00:00:24.718 Thanks for joining me today, Andrew. 00:00:25.087 --> 00:00:26.347 >> I'm really glad to be here. 00:00:27.117 --> 00:00:31.017 >> We're really glad have you, so, uh, let's get right into it. 00:00:31.047 --> 00:00:34.347 And, uh, could you tell me a little about yourself? 00:00:34.377 --> 00:00:35.247 Let's start with that. 00:00:35.707 --> 00:00:36.337 >> Yeah! 00:00:36.717 --> 00:00:41.307 I've been in the industry for a very long time at this point. 00:00:41.337 --> 00:00:49.257 Um, I have a background, mostly in C, C++ kind of lower level programming. 00:00:49.797 --> 00:00:54.307 And, uh, a lot of emphasis on communication technologies. 00:00:54.337 --> 00:00:57.997 So I do a lot of work on instant messaging technologies. 00:00:58.477 --> 00:01:02.407 And I did some on desktop publishing, desktop publishing 00:01:02.407 --> 00:01:07.617 some on, Oh boy, let's see. 00:01:08.037 --> 00:01:11.362 Um, Vector graphics programs. 00:01:11.452 --> 00:01:15.892 Uh, for a while, I was a tech lead in the Windows build lab. 00:01:15.922 --> 00:01:20.362 So the lab that actually builds the daily builds and the golden masters 00:01:20.362 --> 00:01:22.042 for the Windows operating system. 00:01:22.837 --> 00:01:23.347 >> That's cool. 00:01:23.572 --> 00:01:23.932 >> Yeah. 00:01:23.962 --> 00:01:28.282 Worked at, uh, Quark software, which did the desktop publishing software. 00:01:28.582 --> 00:01:32.722 Uh, I did, uh, a little over six years at Microsoft. 00:01:33.187 --> 00:01:36.457 Working in a variety of different divisions on a variety of different 00:01:36.457 --> 00:01:38.347 projects, mostly instant messaging. 00:01:39.067 --> 00:01:47.047 And, uh, I came to functional programming, sort of by accident. 00:01:47.047 --> 00:01:54.187 So, uh, I'm also a serial entrepreneur and in one of the, uh, one of my 00:01:54.187 --> 00:02:00.322 companies, I helped hire a guy out of the University of Washington PhD program. 00:02:00.862 --> 00:02:06.022 And he came and he did some amazing work for us, and he knew a lot about functional 00:02:06.022 --> 00:02:12.352 programming and tried to incorporate that into one of the startups that I worked on. 00:02:12.382 --> 00:02:14.992 And I said, great use whatever tools you want. 00:02:15.382 --> 00:02:17.602 That's not as important to me as what you produce. 00:02:18.562 --> 00:02:20.482 And a little bit later I tried using it. 00:02:20.842 --> 00:02:26.482 And for the first time I was able to do a nested loop without 00:02:26.842 --> 00:02:28.342 bugs on the first attempt. 00:02:28.612 --> 00:02:30.862 And that was kind of an eye-opener for me. 00:02:31.302 --> 00:02:38.202 Uh, and then after that, uh, I, I was curious about the state 00:02:38.232 --> 00:02:40.212 of research in computer science. 00:02:40.602 --> 00:02:46.632 So I've been very focused on how you do things like how you build a 00:02:46.632 --> 00:02:53.232 software processes, how you manage people and less about the technical 00:02:53.232 --> 00:02:55.032 underpinnings and some of the theory. 00:02:56.272 --> 00:02:59.482 And honestly, at that time, I didn't think the theory was all that important. 00:03:00.862 --> 00:03:06.202 But what I tried to do was figure out how are we going to solve the really 00:03:06.202 --> 00:03:08.062 big problems in computer science? 00:03:08.062 --> 00:03:11.512 How are we going to solve problems like concurrency, fault 00:03:11.542 --> 00:03:13.522 tolerance, realtime systems. 00:03:14.182 --> 00:03:18.442 Uh, the, the things that have kind of stymied the industry for a long time and 00:03:18.442 --> 00:03:25.372 particularly as CPUs become multi-core instead of faster on the Silicon. 00:03:25.732 --> 00:03:29.602 And Moore's law seems to be kind of getting to, to its end. 00:03:30.312 --> 00:03:37.032 Uh, we don't have really great stories in most programming about how we're going 00:03:37.032 --> 00:03:41.172 to take advantage of those multi-cores in a way that isn't just running multiple 00:03:41.172 --> 00:03:44.352 programs on the same computer at the same time, having that work better. 00:03:46.362 --> 00:03:49.722 Having worked on operating systems and build systems. 00:03:50.557 --> 00:03:56.227 Threading and parallelism and concurrency are critical to solving 00:03:56.377 --> 00:03:57.727 some of the harder problems. 00:03:57.907 --> 00:03:59.047 And they're really tough. 00:03:59.107 --> 00:04:03.247 Like if you've ever done a lot of mutex and semaphore kind of coding, you 00:04:03.247 --> 00:04:09.217 know, how brittle that can be and how difficult it is to actually debug it. 00:04:09.547 --> 00:04:13.057 Especially when you have to have something like a kernel debugger to 00:04:13.057 --> 00:04:17.347 figure out what's going on at the very lowest levels of the operating system. 00:04:18.802 --> 00:04:24.382 So looking into that, I found functional programming as one of the approaches 00:04:24.382 --> 00:04:31.012 in research that was the most likely to tackle these problems in a serious way. 00:04:31.642 --> 00:04:34.862 And being me, I went for the functional-est of the 00:04:34.882 --> 00:04:38.542 functional programming languages and thus found Haskell. 00:04:40.272 --> 00:04:45.532 Uh, I, you know, I, in my career, I've learned maybe three dozen 00:04:45.532 --> 00:04:47.062 different programming languages. 00:04:47.092 --> 00:04:51.442 Um, some of them are industrial like C, C++ I did. 00:04:51.742 --> 00:04:55.102 I learned Turbo Pascal, and that's where I did some of my first serious 00:04:55.102 --> 00:05:00.292 programming a long, long time ago, but I also have friends who made little toy 00:05:00.322 --> 00:05:02.752 programming languages for various reasons. 00:05:02.782 --> 00:05:06.682 Uh, one friend of mine, uh, created MOO the MUD Object 00:05:06.712 --> 00:05:08.182 Oriented programming language. 00:05:09.802 --> 00:05:10.162 Yeah. 00:05:10.552 --> 00:05:13.972 Turned into LambdaMOO, which was a PARC project. 00:05:14.332 --> 00:05:20.002 Uh, and it, you know, all of these different languages were 00:05:20.932 --> 00:05:23.362 imperative in different forms. 00:05:23.872 --> 00:05:27.172 Sometimes they kind of touched on little bit of functionalism here 00:05:27.172 --> 00:05:31.102 and there, but it was basically imperative and Haskell was the first 00:05:31.102 --> 00:05:32.212 one that really kicked my butt. 00:05:32.652 --> 00:05:37.042 I had a hard time from that imperative to functional, uh, 00:05:37.507 --> 00:05:39.637 mindset change that you have to do. 00:05:40.327 --> 00:05:47.737 And between different syntax that I've really used before, and that mind shift, 00:05:48.277 --> 00:05:52.117 it took me a long time to really dig in and figure out what was going on. 00:05:52.237 --> 00:05:56.197 And it kind of renewed my interest in programming in a way. 00:05:56.647 --> 00:06:00.667 Uh, because it'd been a little stale, like if I learned a new programming 00:06:00.667 --> 00:06:02.137 language, okay, this is another one. 00:06:02.137 --> 00:06:04.537 It's just different syntax over the same concepts. 00:06:05.632 --> 00:06:08.302 I'm not sure why they made this new programming language, but fine. 00:06:08.812 --> 00:06:10.462 I'll go ahead and tackle this. 00:06:11.377 --> 00:06:14.647 Haskell was fundamentally different and, and functional programming was 00:06:14.647 --> 00:06:16.447 a fundamentally different approach. 00:06:16.807 --> 00:06:22.417 And, uh, that difficulty was also one of the things that hooked me and, and 00:06:22.417 --> 00:06:24.387 made me really want to dig in more. 00:06:25.227 --> 00:06:30.207 And then in addition to that, um, it was actually solving problems 00:06:30.237 --> 00:06:32.307 in really interesting ways. 00:06:32.697 --> 00:06:39.502 And, uh, the lazy evaluation, uh, and the, the ways that you can avoid 00:06:39.502 --> 00:06:43.682 recalculating the same value over and over by storing things, in thunks. 00:06:43.702 --> 00:06:49.402 Like th this, this was an approach that was actually addressing the 00:06:49.402 --> 00:06:52.102 problems that I had identified. 00:06:52.707 --> 00:06:53.097 >> Right. 00:06:53.542 --> 00:06:56.662 >> And then, so I tried to do a startup based on that. 00:06:56.962 --> 00:07:00.262 Uh, it didn't work out, but not necessarily for Haskell reasons. 00:07:00.262 --> 00:07:04.102 Although I do have to say trying to learn Haskell by yourself. 00:07:04.552 --> 00:07:08.092 From first principles, uh, with just books and stuff. 00:07:08.122 --> 00:07:11.962 Is a very difficult thing, like getting into the community, getting on IRC 00:07:11.962 --> 00:07:16.042 or the FP Slack or, or any of these where you can ask questions of people 00:07:16.042 --> 00:07:20.392 who've been there and done that before and, and enjoy mentoring new people. 00:07:20.992 --> 00:07:24.022 It makes it so much easier and highly recommended. 00:07:24.292 --> 00:07:28.612 But I tried to do it by myself and it didn't really work out. 00:07:29.602 --> 00:07:34.142 And then I did some other consulting for awhile in embedded systems of C++. 00:07:34.662 --> 00:07:38.782 Then when that contract started winding down, because the company started winding 00:07:38.782 --> 00:07:43.162 down, I looked for a job in, in Haskell. 00:07:43.182 --> 00:07:46.302 Like I figured if I'm going to have to get a new job, why don't I try to 00:07:46.302 --> 00:07:48.072 learn how to do Haskell and production? 00:07:48.462 --> 00:07:50.772 Why don't I try to do something for real. 00:07:51.612 --> 00:07:57.702 And, uh, took a couple of stabs at it and SimSpace bit, and, uh, had a wonderful 00:07:57.702 --> 00:07:59.712 two and a half years at some SimSpace. 00:08:00.282 --> 00:08:07.117 And, uh, when the, when the job opening was announced for the Executive Director 00:08:07.567 --> 00:08:13.147 of the new Haskell Foundation, my first reaction was, this is my dream job. 00:08:13.537 --> 00:08:15.037 This is absolutely my dream job. 00:08:15.067 --> 00:08:19.477 I won't ever get it, but if I don't apply, I certainly won't get it. 00:08:19.477 --> 00:08:21.007 So I'll give it a shot. 00:08:21.907 --> 00:08:24.067 And to my amazement, I got shortlisted. 00:08:25.207 --> 00:08:34.507 And worked on my presentation and my, my, uh, my vision statement and put, put my 00:08:34.507 --> 00:08:38.047 heart and soul into that and then gave the presentation to the interim board. 00:08:38.677 --> 00:08:43.657 And then to my absolute amazement, I was offered the job. 00:08:43.687 --> 00:08:46.687 And, uh, haven't looked back since. 00:08:48.467 --> 00:08:49.727 >> Congratulations! 00:08:49.817 --> 00:08:51.827 Always a good thing to land your dream job. 00:08:52.017 --> 00:08:53.007 >> I think so. 00:08:54.922 --> 00:08:55.912 >> Um, so yeah. 00:08:55.942 --> 00:08:58.582 Thank you for sharing a little about yourself and your 00:08:58.582 --> 00:08:59.902 story and how you got here. 00:09:00.262 --> 00:09:02.962 Uh, there were a couple of things you mentioned that I wanted to dig 00:09:02.962 --> 00:09:04.492 into a little bit before we move on. 00:09:04.942 --> 00:09:09.052 Uh, the first is that coming from a Windows background, I feel like Haskell 00:09:09.142 --> 00:09:10.972 itself is kind of a strange choice. 00:09:10.972 --> 00:09:15.052 And, you know, maybe for a while, it had not the best story on Windows. 00:09:15.082 --> 00:09:17.602 And I could see, I don't know what the timeline was. 00:09:17.602 --> 00:09:19.582 I don't know when F# came into being, but. 00:09:19.867 --> 00:09:23.017 That could, that could be, you know, a appropriate windows choice. 00:09:23.407 --> 00:09:27.367 Um, but that being said, one of the things that you mentioned about Haskell that 00:09:27.367 --> 00:09:31.687 was appealing was that it's like the most functional of the functional languages. 00:09:32.107 --> 00:09:34.597 So languages like F# or Scala, you know, they make a lot of 00:09:34.597 --> 00:09:35.917 concessions to other paradigms. 00:09:36.397 --> 00:09:43.837 Um, so I guess, it is that pure functionality what drew you to Haskell 00:09:43.837 --> 00:09:46.477 or was there, was there anything else going on in that consideration? 00:09:46.692 --> 00:09:50.112 >> I think that the pure functionality is a big consideration 00:09:50.142 --> 00:09:56.002 because when you have that purity, it is not the pejorative purity. 00:09:56.072 --> 00:10:00.912 It is purity in the sense of how the runtime system evaluates 00:10:00.912 --> 00:10:03.672 things and the assumptions that that runtime system can make. 00:10:04.122 --> 00:10:09.037 And so, uh, for example, uh, one of the things that I keep hearing about 00:10:09.067 --> 00:10:12.457 is how STM is this game changer. 00:10:12.487 --> 00:10:15.997 You know, the killer app for Haskell and the more I dig into it, the 00:10:15.997 --> 00:10:21.097 more I believe that to be the case, STM was tried in other languages. 00:10:21.922 --> 00:10:26.572 It's, it's not unique to Haskell, but the implementation in Haskell is unique. 00:10:26.872 --> 00:10:31.042 Because the choices that have been made in both the structure of the 00:10:31.042 --> 00:10:37.042 language and the runtime mean that you can get a real implementation of STM 00:10:37.042 --> 00:10:38.592 that doesn't have a bunch of warts. 00:10:39.412 --> 00:10:45.952 And, uh, as, as the, the folks at TypeClasses.com say like, it just works. 00:10:45.982 --> 00:10:47.902 Like you don't ha it just works. 00:10:48.862 --> 00:10:50.422 You don't have to think about it. 00:10:50.512 --> 00:10:56.872 You don't, it's not, in some ways, it's not a sufficient problem to garnish a 00:10:56.872 --> 00:11:01.732 lot of attention because you just, it's just the thing that you use and then it 00:11:01.732 --> 00:11:03.382 works and then you move on with your life. 00:11:03.892 --> 00:11:07.462 And I think this is kind of true with Haskell in many ways. 00:11:08.122 --> 00:11:12.712 We take for granted so many things in Haskell that just work and they work great 00:11:12.772 --> 00:11:14.302 and you don't have to think about them. 00:11:14.902 --> 00:11:19.012 And then we get to focus on the problem areas that we do have. 00:11:19.522 --> 00:11:23.452 And I think people over-focus on those problem areas in some sense, 00:11:23.482 --> 00:11:27.282 when they're evaluating the language, because they're not, you know, you 00:11:27.322 --> 00:11:28.732 don't see the things that just work. 00:11:29.217 --> 00:11:29.577 >> Right. 00:11:30.177 --> 00:11:30.477 Yeah. 00:11:30.507 --> 00:11:34.587 I, I, I'm familiar with the Type Classes article that you're referencing, 00:11:34.587 --> 00:11:40.197 where they're, you know, writing about software transactional memory and 00:11:40.197 --> 00:11:44.127 what it means and how Haskell does it and why it works so well in Haskell. 00:11:44.127 --> 00:11:48.217 And I like that, it's kind of the, um, Yeah, it works so well 00:11:48.217 --> 00:11:49.357 that you just take it for granted. 00:11:49.387 --> 00:11:51.217 And so many things in Haskell are like that. 00:11:51.457 --> 00:11:56.827 And like you said, uh, that can cause people to, over-focus not even people 00:11:56.827 --> 00:11:59.527 new to the language, but people that are really familiar with it, you know, you 00:11:59.527 --> 00:12:03.427 get these little paper cuts and you spend all your time complaining about them 00:12:03.427 --> 00:12:05.287 because everything else works so well. 00:12:05.707 --> 00:12:09.097 Uh, which in a way is kind of good, but also kind of gives the wrong 00:12:09.097 --> 00:12:10.477 impression to people that may be new. 00:12:10.707 --> 00:12:13.467 >> And what we want to do with the Foundation is actually 00:12:13.467 --> 00:12:14.937 address those paper cuts. 00:12:15.027 --> 00:12:16.767 Uh, and it's not so much. 00:12:17.097 --> 00:12:21.717 I see the, the, the purpose of the foundation isn't 00:12:21.717 --> 00:12:22.827 to solve all the problems. 00:12:22.827 --> 00:12:26.517 The purpose of the foundation is to bring the community together 00:12:26.547 --> 00:12:31.162 and focus the efforts to make sure that we make significant 00:12:31.162 --> 00:12:32.812 progress on some of these areas. 00:12:33.232 --> 00:12:39.142 So in, you know, we have issues with CI, we have issues with our 00:12:39.142 --> 00:12:44.152 builds and, and the reproducibility and increment ability of those. 00:12:45.082 --> 00:12:51.262 So what we need to do as a community is focus on those problem areas. 00:12:51.292 --> 00:12:56.962 Stop having wars between different points of view and communicate, and 00:12:56.962 --> 00:13:00.112 really come up with what is the right solution for the overall community. 00:13:00.532 --> 00:13:06.232 And I think that the Foundation has been exceptionally, uh, I think that we've 00:13:06.232 --> 00:13:09.382 been very successful at that already. 00:13:10.162 --> 00:13:16.672 So we we've brought together a number of groups that have been at odds in the past. 00:13:17.302 --> 00:13:22.972 And getting them to talk constructively together and actually figure 00:13:22.972 --> 00:13:24.292 out what the right solution is. 00:13:24.292 --> 00:13:25.792 And I think we'll continue to do that. 00:13:26.122 --> 00:13:30.562 And I give a lot of credit to that, to our CTO, Emily Pillmore, who is doing 00:13:30.562 --> 00:13:37.792 a fantastic job of taking the technical approach of, okay, here's our big problem. 00:13:38.332 --> 00:13:40.882 And here are the right people to get into the room to talk about 00:13:40.882 --> 00:13:42.082 it and figure out the solution. 00:13:42.487 --> 00:13:46.477 Hash out the solution and then try to figure out how to make the 00:13:46.477 --> 00:13:48.197 technical changes to get it done. 00:13:48.827 --> 00:13:53.097 >> Yeah, it seems to me like she has done an excellent job of that so far. 00:13:53.397 --> 00:13:59.847 And the Foundation itself has only really been together for a few months, right? 00:14:00.087 --> 00:14:04.797 >> Yeah, we started full time, uh, two months ago almost to the day. 00:14:05.167 --> 00:14:09.277 So, you know, overall we have not been in existence very long, but 00:14:09.277 --> 00:14:12.757 I think that we already have a lot to show for, for what we've done. 00:14:13.477 --> 00:14:20.137 And, uh, you know, one of the things you can get into very niche, nerdy 00:14:20.287 --> 00:14:25.027 areas with, with Haskell in general, but with programmers in particular 00:14:25.027 --> 00:14:31.027 and, uh, you know, our, our text UT-8 proposal is one of those cases, right? 00:14:31.387 --> 00:14:36.442 So the idea is that we take our internal text representation from 00:14:36.442 --> 00:14:38.762 UTF-16, turned it into UTF-8. 00:14:39.682 --> 00:14:42.622 Most of the time, UTF-8 is the correct solution. 00:14:42.982 --> 00:14:47.362 It's not only smaller because it encodes in a more compressed format. 00:14:47.992 --> 00:14:52.167 But, in most use cases, it's going to be more performant. 00:14:52.747 --> 00:14:57.217 And when you think about data locality, you don't want a giant 00:14:57.487 --> 00:15:01.357 chunks of memory, when you can have it in much smaller chunks of memory. 00:15:01.987 --> 00:15:04.837 You still need the UTF-16 representations, and we're not 00:15:04.837 --> 00:15:06.307 talking about getting rid of them. 00:15:06.847 --> 00:15:10.417 But those are more for special cases where you're taking something 00:15:10.417 --> 00:15:12.697 from maybe an older encoding. 00:15:13.252 --> 00:15:17.172 Uh, especially like an East Asian encoding and trying to turn it 00:15:17.172 --> 00:15:20.482 into a UTF kind of encoding. 00:15:20.872 --> 00:15:26.452 And in those cases, maybe the, uh, the default performance will degrade 00:15:26.482 --> 00:15:31.102 very slightly, but on the other hand, almost all the other performance 00:15:31.102 --> 00:15:32.842 will get significantly better. 00:15:33.202 --> 00:15:35.572 So this is just something that, that has needed to happen. 00:15:35.572 --> 00:15:38.482 We needed to get the right people into the room to make it happen. 00:15:38.992 --> 00:15:41.422 And at this point we have a plan on what we're going to do. 00:15:41.892 --> 00:15:43.182 >> That's excellent to hear. 00:15:43.182 --> 00:15:47.502 And I know that's one of those paper cuts where I have heard about it a lot. 00:15:47.742 --> 00:15:51.342 And based on the volume of complaints, you might assume that it's some huge 00:15:51.342 --> 00:15:56.002 problem that like text performance in Haskell is abysmal because of UTF-16. 00:15:56.022 --> 00:16:00.052 But that's not the case in like, as I understand it, Windows uses UTF-16 00:16:00.072 --> 00:16:01.542 behind the scenes or something like it. 00:16:01.542 --> 00:16:03.972 So it's not a completely unheard of. 00:16:04.152 --> 00:16:04.962 Um, but yeah. 00:16:05.482 --> 00:16:07.432 Thanks for giving an overview of that. 00:16:07.492 --> 00:16:11.002 Uh, what other kind of irons in the fire does the Haskell 00:16:11.002 --> 00:16:12.322 Foundation have going on right now? 00:16:12.637 --> 00:16:14.557 >> Well, you talked about, uh, Windows support. 00:16:14.647 --> 00:16:21.577 And, uh, we are really, this, this is an area that has been interesting. 00:16:21.637 --> 00:16:28.657 So Windows has been something that has been supported by, by GHC and the Haskell 00:16:28.657 --> 00:16:32.377 community more or less for a long time. 00:16:33.277 --> 00:16:41.002 But clearly the compiler was built on Unix and it's kind of a Unix first situation. 00:16:41.002 --> 00:16:47.002 So getting this tool set onto Windows, which is these days, what I run. 00:16:47.072 --> 00:16:54.322 I, I come to, I did work at Microsoft for a long time, but I was also an extremely 00:16:54.322 --> 00:16:59.422 early Linux, adopter and Mac programmer before I was a Windows programmer. 00:16:59.752 --> 00:17:01.132 And, uh, uh. 00:17:02.202 --> 00:17:03.252 >> Got all your bases covered. 00:17:03.312 --> 00:17:05.572 >> Yeah, I got, I've done basically all of them. 00:17:06.487 --> 00:17:11.967 I like the Windows platform and having worked on Windows itself, I 00:17:11.967 --> 00:17:15.717 understand the technical excellence that's going on inside the kernel. 00:17:16.077 --> 00:17:21.287 It's just different enough from Unix that trying to do something 00:17:21.287 --> 00:17:25.407 Unix-y on windows is difficult. 00:17:25.437 --> 00:17:26.907 There's, there's a lot of friction there. 00:17:27.717 --> 00:17:30.807 And right now, that was interesting, right now. 00:17:30.897 --> 00:17:39.282 Um, we sort of have this, this almost emulation layer between the way GHC 00:17:39.282 --> 00:17:44.832 wants to talk to the operating system, which it assumes has Unix style to figure 00:17:44.832 --> 00:17:46.752 out how to make that work on Windows. 00:17:47.142 --> 00:17:50.472 Uh, we would like to fix that, but that's a longer term thing. 00:17:50.502 --> 00:17:52.182 That's a, that's a pretty massive change. 00:17:52.602 --> 00:17:56.892 In the shorter term, we want to make it easier to just install GHC and 00:17:56.892 --> 00:17:59.172 get it up and running on Windows. 00:17:59.532 --> 00:18:05.212 Uh, and so, Emily again, has gotten a bunch of experts in this area together 00:18:05.542 --> 00:18:08.212 to figure out what the right choice is. 00:18:08.242 --> 00:18:10.582 And I think we have a plan on that as well. 00:18:10.932 --> 00:18:14.142 It's not the slickest thing. 00:18:14.142 --> 00:18:18.792 Like it's not, it's not just simple, unfortunately, because of the ways 00:18:18.852 --> 00:18:20.622 that that GHC has been developed. 00:18:20.982 --> 00:18:23.322 And not just GHC, but the libraries. 00:18:23.352 --> 00:18:26.772 So there's a lot of libraries out there that are very fundamental to the way 00:18:26.982 --> 00:18:28.932 that people build Haskell applications. 00:18:29.257 --> 00:18:30.817 That assume Unix as well. 00:18:31.477 --> 00:18:39.487 So we've got a lot of work to try to make uh GHC a Windows, uh, native, 00:18:39.517 --> 00:18:42.277 if you will kind of, uh, program. 00:18:42.652 --> 00:18:47.692 I think we'll get there eventually, but that's going to require a lot of work. 00:18:47.992 --> 00:18:53.062 Uh, probably a lot of money, uh, because there's, there's just going to be 00:18:53.242 --> 00:18:56.992 going out and finding the right experts and, and trying to get them to do it. 00:18:57.322 --> 00:19:01.582 I don't think that there has been historically enough volunteer 00:19:01.582 --> 00:19:07.822 effort to, to make that viable as a 100% volunteer project. 00:19:07.842 --> 00:19:08.232 >> Right. 00:19:08.742 --> 00:19:10.152 It, it sounds promising. 00:19:10.242 --> 00:19:13.932 And, uh, it does seem like a lot of the volunteer effort, people that are 00:19:13.932 --> 00:19:18.792 interested in Haskell as a hobby typically are on Unix or these days maybe even 00:19:18.792 --> 00:19:24.432 Nix, uh, or macOS so you don't get a lot of that non POSIX representation. 00:19:24.552 --> 00:19:30.607 Um, that being said, similar to you, I have, you know, right now on my desk, a 00:19:30.817 --> 00:19:33.577 Windows PC, Linux PC, and a Mac laptop. 00:19:33.607 --> 00:19:35.017 And I use Haskell on all of them. 00:19:35.077 --> 00:19:38.017 And most of the time, almost all the time, in fact, it just works. 00:19:38.047 --> 00:19:42.727 So again, like this is one of those paper cuts that maybe gets 00:19:42.727 --> 00:19:43.717 talked about a little too much. 00:19:43.717 --> 00:19:47.167 So, um, but I'm happy to hear that the situation will be improving. 00:19:47.262 --> 00:19:47.532 >> Yeah. 00:19:47.562 --> 00:19:51.042 If you can, if you can figure out how to install it, it 00:19:51.042 --> 00:19:52.302 generally works really well. 00:19:52.582 --> 00:19:58.752 I think the, the, the group that, that has built Stack, uh, Michael Snoyman 00:19:59.122 --> 00:20:01.842 and company have done an excellent job. 00:20:01.872 --> 00:20:05.532 They've got one approach to how they do the installations that, 00:20:05.562 --> 00:20:07.897 that makes it work, uh, quite well. 00:20:08.617 --> 00:20:13.477 And it may be that we adopt most of their approach, uh, in general. 00:20:13.987 --> 00:20:16.027 But it could get better. 00:20:16.147 --> 00:20:21.097 And, you know, it's, it's that once you get it onto the machine, then it works. 00:20:21.127 --> 00:20:25.957 But I wonder if there is some selection bias there. 00:20:25.957 --> 00:20:33.322 So if it is difficult to put it onto a Windows machine, Therefore people who 00:20:33.322 --> 00:20:35.932 are very Windows centric, try it out. 00:20:35.932 --> 00:20:36.952 They get very frustrated. 00:20:36.982 --> 00:20:37.612 They don't do it. 00:20:37.612 --> 00:20:39.272 We don't get a lot of them in the community. 00:20:40.112 --> 00:20:41.332 >> Right, they bounce off. 00:20:41.582 --> 00:20:46.012 >> My, my hope, you know, w as, as the, the Haskell Foundation, we are 00:20:46.012 --> 00:20:48.232 trying to drive more adoption of Haskell. 00:20:49.282 --> 00:20:54.022 One of the ways that we can do that is by making it easier for more people to 00:20:54.667 --> 00:20:57.877 bring it up and install it and try it out. 00:20:58.627 --> 00:21:04.117 So one of the big reasons that we're making this effort in the Windows 00:21:04.117 --> 00:21:11.197 installer is to try to make it easier for people on Windows to use Haskell 00:21:11.437 --> 00:21:12.877 so that they can get involved. 00:21:13.087 --> 00:21:17.257 And then maybe if we get that, if we can get that snowball kind of 00:21:17.257 --> 00:21:21.067 started, then we'll get more and then we'll get some people that 00:21:21.067 --> 00:21:22.867 are very passionate about Windows. 00:21:23.362 --> 00:21:28.252 And having Haskell on Windows and then they'll volunteer and it'll just 00:21:28.252 --> 00:21:29.662 get easier and easier after that. 00:21:29.662 --> 00:21:31.172 That that is definitely our goal. 00:21:31.312 --> 00:21:32.382 >> Sounds like a virtuous cycle. 00:21:32.382 --> 00:21:32.582 >> Yes. 00:21:32.582 --> 00:21:32.642 >> Yeah. 00:21:33.292 --> 00:21:37.642 Um, so that, that sounds again, very promising, very exciting. 00:21:37.792 --> 00:21:42.622 And, uh, it sounds like one of the ways that people could help with 00:21:42.652 --> 00:21:46.732 this, and other things in general, is to, you know, be more active in the 00:21:46.732 --> 00:21:52.072 community, and try to onboard, you know, evangelize a little bit, I guess. 00:21:52.612 --> 00:21:56.752 Um, but what are some other ways that individuals could help out? 00:21:56.932 --> 00:22:00.592 Uh, both the Haskell Foundation and the broader Haskell community. 00:22:01.777 --> 00:22:03.337 >> Well, there, there's a few different ways. 00:22:03.367 --> 00:22:08.197 So volunteering is clearly the biggest way. 00:22:08.197 --> 00:22:11.347 If you can put your time and energy into it, you're going to make 00:22:11.347 --> 00:22:14.677 the biggest, uh, biggest change. 00:22:15.097 --> 00:22:17.587 Uh, but it doesn't necessarily just mean coding. 00:22:17.827 --> 00:22:23.437 And so one of the ways that you could help is by finding an open source 00:22:23.437 --> 00:22:27.217 project that you are particularly passionate about or interested in, or 00:22:27.217 --> 00:22:31.147 curious about and volunteering to help. 00:22:32.197 --> 00:22:33.427 Make changes to that. 00:22:33.547 --> 00:22:34.747 Submit some PRs. 00:22:35.137 --> 00:22:40.177 That's one way to do it, but there's also a big need for documentation 00:22:40.567 --> 00:22:42.607 improvements and updating. 00:22:42.637 --> 00:22:51.757 So, uh, we have, uh, one of our board members who is doing a fantastic job of 00:22:52.087 --> 00:22:58.327 rallying the community around updating, improving, fixing the documentation. 00:22:58.357 --> 00:23:02.092 You know, if you go to Haskell.org, there have been historically a lot of 00:23:02.092 --> 00:23:05.932 dead links and, uh, dated material. 00:23:06.352 --> 00:23:11.812 And so they've been going through and fixing the links and updating material 00:23:11.872 --> 00:23:15.862 and making it much more friendly for people to come into the community and 00:23:15.862 --> 00:23:17.542 find the resources that they need. 00:23:18.352 --> 00:23:27.322 Uh, one of the things that we're trying to, to spearhead is a sense of community. 00:23:27.712 --> 00:23:33.757 And in particular, we would like people to volunteer, to become community moderators. 00:23:34.207 --> 00:23:40.297 So that when there are conflicts, when there are people that are, uh, 00:23:40.357 --> 00:23:45.637 either arguing or not treating each other well, that we have some way of 00:23:45.637 --> 00:23:50.197 resolving those conflicts in a way that is consistent with the Guidelines for 00:23:50.197 --> 00:23:55.457 Respectful Communication that Simon Peyton Jones, and the GHC steering 00:23:55.727 --> 00:24:01.567 committee came up with, uh, and are foundational to the Haskell Foundation. 00:24:01.597 --> 00:24:08.137 So one of the things that I would like to do, one of my goals is to get volunteers. 00:24:08.602 --> 00:24:12.802 Both in the core Haskell Foundation community, as well as affiliated 00:24:12.802 --> 00:24:20.752 communities to have training on conflict resolution, situational deescalation, 00:24:21.082 --> 00:24:26.632 uh, active listening, and a lot of these techniques that are well-known throughout 00:24:26.632 --> 00:24:28.522 the industry and other industries. 00:24:29.122 --> 00:24:34.762 Uh, but having those skills is something that's great for you personally. 00:24:35.512 --> 00:24:40.462 Uh, and it means that our community is better off overall. 00:24:40.672 --> 00:24:43.582 So we're exploring ways of providing that training. 00:24:43.912 --> 00:24:48.982 Uh, I know some materials that people can look at today to start acquiring 00:24:48.982 --> 00:24:53.782 those skills, but I think training with a mentor also makes a big difference. 00:24:55.482 --> 00:24:58.212 >> That sounds very, uh, exciting. 00:24:58.602 --> 00:25:02.812 I am a moderator of the Haskell subreddit, which is not, you know, 00:25:02.812 --> 00:25:05.452 an official community and not associated with Foundation in any way. 00:25:05.482 --> 00:25:08.782 But, um, that's one of the things that I have struggled with in that 00:25:08.782 --> 00:25:15.502 role as well of, seeing a thread develop in a direction where you kind 00:25:15.502 --> 00:25:18.922 of know where it's going to end up and it isn't going to be productive. 00:25:18.952 --> 00:25:21.352 But maybe lacking some of the tools. 00:25:21.932 --> 00:25:25.942 You know, in my own repertoire to deescalate that in a way where people 00:25:26.152 --> 00:25:29.662 don't feel like they're just getting shut down, but that, you know, w 00:25:29.722 --> 00:25:30.832 we all know where this is going. 00:25:30.832 --> 00:25:32.452 Let's not, you know, snipe at each other. 00:25:32.452 --> 00:25:33.502 Let's be productive. 00:25:33.762 --> 00:25:38.232 >> Yeah, I think we, we want to assume good intent most of the time. 00:25:38.652 --> 00:25:43.717 And oftentimes, it's not bad intent that causes these issues. 00:25:44.137 --> 00:25:47.827 It's the communication styles that rub the wrong way. 00:25:48.127 --> 00:25:52.987 Or it's somebody who makes assumptions and those assumptions are not warranted. 00:25:52.987 --> 00:25:57.037 But how do you help them realize that they're making assumptions about this 00:25:57.037 --> 00:25:59.107 other person or that person's intent? 00:25:59.647 --> 00:26:06.147 We see this on a regular basis, sadly, where, uh, somebody will step up. 00:26:06.717 --> 00:26:09.027 They'll say, I want to help make a difference. 00:26:09.567 --> 00:26:15.787 They start trying to, to take action in the community to, to make things 00:26:15.787 --> 00:26:20.077 better, and then somebody will get defensive about it and make assumptions 00:26:20.077 --> 00:26:23.017 about their intent, make assumptions about what they're intending to 00:26:23.017 --> 00:26:27.157 do, and then react negatively. 00:26:27.817 --> 00:26:32.977 Uh, ideally, you know, it's one of those classic, like if you have nothing 00:26:32.977 --> 00:26:34.807 good to say, don't say anything at all. 00:26:36.187 --> 00:26:42.487 But, once somebody starts down that road, if you have the skill sets, 00:26:42.517 --> 00:26:44.347 you can deescalate the situation. 00:26:44.377 --> 00:26:47.887 You can say, Hey, think about it from the other person's point of view. 00:26:48.127 --> 00:26:50.287 What do you think that they're trying to accomplish? 00:26:51.547 --> 00:26:55.057 How do you think that the way that you reacted comes off to that? 00:26:55.417 --> 00:26:56.827 What were you trying to do? 00:26:56.887 --> 00:26:58.897 What, what, what are you worried about? 00:26:59.407 --> 00:27:01.957 What is the thing that is causing you stress? 00:27:03.532 --> 00:27:06.232 When you get these techniques, it becomes much easier. 00:27:06.442 --> 00:27:08.452 Um, but you need those techniques. 00:27:08.482 --> 00:27:17.122 And in tech in general, I think we, we don't give enough value to the 00:27:17.122 --> 00:27:21.802 soft skills, the interpersonal skills, and they are a set of skill sets. 00:27:22.942 --> 00:27:26.542 If you're not good at them, you can't do well at those skills. 00:27:27.187 --> 00:27:31.417 So the, the classic example is the exceptional engineer who was 00:27:31.417 --> 00:27:36.697 promoted to lead or manager who has no leader manager skills and not 00:27:36.697 --> 00:27:38.167 enough of the interpersonal skills. 00:27:38.557 --> 00:27:42.067 And then they flail for a few years while they try to acquire them, but 00:27:42.127 --> 00:27:45.967 they don't necessarily get the support and the training that they need to 00:27:45.967 --> 00:27:48.547 acquire them in a reasonable speed. 00:27:48.967 --> 00:27:52.777 Uh, I think that's a mistake that the industry makes in general. 00:27:52.867 --> 00:27:55.507 I think we're addressing that in, in many cases. 00:27:56.017 --> 00:27:58.357 But, within the Haskell community. 00:27:58.357 --> 00:28:00.007 I think we need to get very proactive. 00:28:00.007 --> 00:28:06.487 I think we need to not only do the moderation, but we also need to 00:28:06.487 --> 00:28:09.877 empower the moderators with the skills that they need to do the job well. 00:28:10.447 --> 00:28:15.277 And then the payoff for that is going to be a bigger, happier community that 00:28:15.277 --> 00:28:17.647 is cooperating more and fighting less. 00:28:18.297 --> 00:28:18.957 >> Absolutely. 00:28:19.137 --> 00:28:20.607 I agree with everything you said. 00:28:20.667 --> 00:28:25.737 And the only additional thing I have to throw in the mix is that Haskell, 00:28:26.242 --> 00:28:32.152 as a community, is very geographically distributed, almost surprisingly so. 00:28:32.152 --> 00:28:36.682 I often, you know, see posts or get up profiles from people all over the world. 00:28:37.252 --> 00:28:43.342 And there's an assumption, I think, that if you're communicating online in, in 00:28:43.552 --> 00:28:48.712 majority English speaking forum, that everyone is a native English speaker. 00:28:49.132 --> 00:28:52.942 And I think a lot of disagreements, strife or whatever can come 00:28:52.942 --> 00:28:55.582 from that translation layer. 00:28:55.612 --> 00:28:59.332 And, you know, not being familiar with idioms or not catching things 00:28:59.332 --> 00:29:00.712 that a native speaker may catch. 00:29:01.042 --> 00:29:05.482 So um having a third party moderator or arbitrator come in and say, 00:29:05.992 --> 00:29:08.452 I don't, I don't think you two are actually disagreeing here. 00:29:08.452 --> 00:29:10.582 There's just an impedance mismatch going on. 00:29:10.612 --> 00:29:12.042 That that can be hugely helpful. 00:29:12.252 --> 00:29:14.832 >> Yeah, we've seen a number of violent agreements 00:29:15.292 --> 00:29:17.497 in the community over time. 00:29:17.557 --> 00:29:20.887 And I w you know, I love the community. 00:29:20.917 --> 00:29:24.067 One of the reasons that this is my dream job is because of the 00:29:24.067 --> 00:29:25.627 community around the language. 00:29:25.657 --> 00:29:26.677 The language is great. 00:29:27.307 --> 00:29:28.027 Don't get me wrong. 00:29:28.057 --> 00:29:32.137 The runtime is great, but the thing that makes Haskell what it is, is 00:29:32.137 --> 00:29:33.757 actually the community around it. 00:29:33.757 --> 00:29:38.557 The people that are absolutely passionate and creating all of the foundational 00:29:38.557 --> 00:29:40.357 libraries that we build upon. 00:29:40.987 --> 00:29:42.877 We need to support those people. 00:29:42.937 --> 00:29:43.387 And. 00:29:43.822 --> 00:29:46.662 Uh, we've had a big problem with, for instance, open source 00:29:46.762 --> 00:29:48.412 project moderator burnout. 00:29:49.552 --> 00:29:54.922 And one of the reasons I think that is, is because we don't give them, we 00:29:54.922 --> 00:29:59.122 don't proactively give them the skills that they need to be able to manage a 00:29:59.122 --> 00:30:01.432 group of people, a group of volunteers. 00:30:01.762 --> 00:30:08.662 Uh, help them with their communication skills so that they are not constantly 00:30:08.662 --> 00:30:12.142 feeling like they're fighting defensive actions against a bunch of people 00:30:12.142 --> 00:30:17.182 that don't get their vision or, or are trying to do something different with 00:30:17.212 --> 00:30:18.772 their project than what they want. 00:30:19.282 --> 00:30:21.412 Where they want it to go or where they think it should go. 00:30:22.792 --> 00:30:26.542 One of the reasons that we want to do this affiliation with different communities 00:30:26.752 --> 00:30:32.662 and projects is so that we can help those projects get the same skills, the 00:30:32.662 --> 00:30:34.822 same people skills, the same training. 00:30:35.092 --> 00:30:44.032 So that they're not struggling with the same problems over and over. 00:30:44.542 --> 00:30:50.092 Um, and you know, if you, if you are in a project where 00:30:50.152 --> 00:30:52.282 everybody is on the same page. 00:30:52.882 --> 00:30:56.212 Everybody has a shared vision of where they want that project to go. 00:30:56.662 --> 00:31:02.752 And they're supporting each other and ideas are bouncing around and you know, 00:31:03.532 --> 00:31:09.082 you, you put up a PR and instead of nasty comments about how bad your code is. 00:31:09.082 --> 00:31:11.242 Instead it's have you, have you tried this? 00:31:11.242 --> 00:31:12.022 Have you tried this? 00:31:12.022 --> 00:31:12.922 Have you tried this? 00:31:13.897 --> 00:31:17.587 Then it becomes exciting and energetic, and everybody wants 00:31:17.587 --> 00:31:19.267 to spend more time doing it. 00:31:19.327 --> 00:31:24.457 And you know, you make friends for life and you have this close knit community. 00:31:24.457 --> 00:31:26.347 And that's what we want out of Haskell. 00:31:26.797 --> 00:31:31.717 So when a project affiliates with the Haskell Foundation, part of 00:31:31.717 --> 00:31:35.347 that is adopting the Guidelines for Respectful Communication so that we 00:31:35.347 --> 00:31:38.977 know we're all on the same page about how everybody should be treated. 00:31:39.337 --> 00:31:41.767 And that does not mean that everybody thinks the same. 00:31:42.517 --> 00:31:47.167 What that means is that we are respectful even when we disagree. 00:31:47.772 --> 00:31:48.282 >> I love it. 00:31:48.462 --> 00:31:50.142 That's the world that I want to live in. 00:31:51.462 --> 00:31:56.562 Um, so we've talked a lot about what individuals can do to support the 00:31:56.562 --> 00:31:58.452 Foundation and support the community. 00:31:58.812 --> 00:32:03.582 Uh, for those of us that are lucky enough to be working with Haskell professionally, 00:32:03.762 --> 00:32:09.642 um, what can we do as companies or as individuals in a company to support 00:32:09.942 --> 00:32:11.442 the Foundation and the community? 00:32:11.912 --> 00:32:14.142 >> Yeah, we have a sponsorship program. 00:32:14.322 --> 00:32:18.772 So we have a number of wonderful companies who have stepped up to 00:32:18.802 --> 00:32:20.842 support the Foundation financially. 00:32:21.412 --> 00:32:24.112 Uh, and there's a few different ways to do that. 00:32:24.862 --> 00:32:28.312 Writing a check is, is obviously one of the best ways to do it. 00:32:28.372 --> 00:32:32.722 It gives us the opportunity to prioritize and figure out 00:32:32.722 --> 00:32:34.342 where that money is best used. 00:32:34.822 --> 00:32:37.462 Uh, we have a list of prioritized projects. 00:32:37.462 --> 00:32:42.932 Like if we get enough money, we are going to help the GHC devs 00:32:42.952 --> 00:32:44.692 with their CI infrastructure. 00:32:45.187 --> 00:32:49.837 This would make them substantially more, uh, more productive because they would 00:32:49.837 --> 00:32:55.297 spend less time worrying about the dev ops related side of what they're doing. 00:32:55.297 --> 00:33:00.487 And more time working on fixing bugs, tracking down issues, enhancing 00:33:00.487 --> 00:33:02.207 things, working on performance. 00:33:03.287 --> 00:33:07.087 We want a budget so that we can train these moderators. 00:33:07.147 --> 00:33:10.537 You know, there, there's a lot of things that if we have money, we 00:33:10.537 --> 00:33:12.217 can, we can make a big difference. 00:33:12.277 --> 00:33:17.617 So, get ahold of us and sponsor the Foundation, write a check, 00:33:18.007 --> 00:33:22.657 uh, encourage your company to support the Haskell Foundation. 00:33:23.047 --> 00:33:29.917 So the way to think about this is like any open source project. 00:33:31.237 --> 00:33:35.617 You're getting it for free and you can build your company based on 00:33:35.617 --> 00:33:37.297 Haskell without having to pay a dime. 00:33:37.807 --> 00:33:38.977 And that's fantastic. 00:33:39.177 --> 00:33:40.627 That's actually what we want. 00:33:40.627 --> 00:33:45.787 We want you to be able to try out the language to build your company 00:33:46.147 --> 00:33:48.307 to gain a huge amount of success. 00:33:48.667 --> 00:33:53.467 And then after that, we want you to look at supporting your community. 00:33:53.767 --> 00:33:56.617 And that's not necessarily just the Haskell Foundation. 00:33:56.617 --> 00:33:59.107 There are other open source projects out there. 00:33:59.407 --> 00:34:04.417 There are other organizations like, like Haskell.org that that could use support. 00:34:05.437 --> 00:34:10.087 But fundamentally, you know, if you make a lot of money using Haskell as 00:34:10.087 --> 00:34:16.432 your technology stack, You need to give back, you need to support those tools. 00:34:16.492 --> 00:34:20.122 And it's, it's what I call enlightened self-interest. 00:34:20.902 --> 00:34:24.352 You're also going to get better tools. 00:34:24.502 --> 00:34:29.962 You're also going to, uh, get your name out there as one of the 00:34:29.962 --> 00:34:32.122 companies that uses Haskell and then. 00:34:32.632 --> 00:34:36.562 In our materials, we have our list of sponsors and people that are actively 00:34:36.562 --> 00:34:41.212 looking for Haskell jobs, know that they can go to that list of sponsors and 00:34:41.212 --> 00:34:43.552 say, Hey, what are your open positions? 00:34:43.552 --> 00:34:44.422 Can I apply? 00:34:44.872 --> 00:34:53.242 So it's not pure philanthropy, but, uh, I think that if you. 00:34:54.352 --> 00:34:58.822 Particularly, if you have pet peeves about the state of the tool set. 00:34:59.152 --> 00:35:05.167 About, uh, the, the speed of the compiler, you know, whatever it is. 00:35:05.977 --> 00:35:08.317 You need to support the people that are trying to make the difference. 00:35:08.317 --> 00:35:16.897 You need to support the, the groups and, uh, the technical agenda that allows us 00:35:16.897 --> 00:35:18.757 to address those issues in a big way. 00:35:19.207 --> 00:35:21.397 We have plenty of ambition. 00:35:21.907 --> 00:35:23.497 Ambition is not a problem. 00:35:23.797 --> 00:35:26.557 What we need is resources to make it happen. 00:35:26.677 --> 00:35:33.922 And we know that if we had a, you know, In a fantasy world, millions and 00:35:33.922 --> 00:35:35.542 millions or tens of millions of dollars. 00:35:36.712 --> 00:35:41.302 I know like the projects that I would write checks for, and I w I feel like 00:35:41.332 --> 00:35:46.492 I would find the right contractors, the right consultants, have them write 00:35:46.492 --> 00:35:51.832 up the plans, maybe go through a re refresh request for proposals process. 00:35:52.942 --> 00:35:54.472 We know what we want to do. 00:35:55.432 --> 00:36:00.922 And one of the interesting things about Haskell is, that there really 00:36:01.132 --> 00:36:04.132 are no full time developers of GHC. 00:36:04.762 --> 00:36:06.262 It's all a volunteer effort. 00:36:06.262 --> 00:36:09.632 There are a few people that are paid like a Ben Gamari. 00:36:09.652 --> 00:36:13.972 For instance, we do support him through the Foundation today through 00:36:14.032 --> 00:36:16.072 a very generous grant from GitHub. 00:36:17.782 --> 00:36:21.412 But the amount that we're talking about is not sufficient 00:36:21.442 --> 00:36:23.842 for someone of his skillset. 00:36:24.262 --> 00:36:29.002 So, what I would ideally like to do is I would like to have full-time 00:36:29.002 --> 00:36:32.332 people that work on the compiler and that is their full-time job. 00:36:32.722 --> 00:36:34.312 I think we need a release manager. 00:36:34.522 --> 00:36:38.842 I think we need a professional dev ops person for GHC. 00:36:39.142 --> 00:36:44.092 Uh, I would like to have a speak, you know, calling back to our community 00:36:44.092 --> 00:36:49.132 efforts in the moderation, I would like to have a full-time community manager at 00:36:49.132 --> 00:36:54.757 Haskell Foundation that helps all of the moderators for all of the other groups. 00:36:55.117 --> 00:36:59.227 And, you know, schedules the training and make sure, and is the escalation 00:36:59.227 --> 00:37:02.107 path, if something goes particularly wrong in one of those groups. 00:37:03.007 --> 00:37:10.657 So I think if you are out in the community, if you think that Haskell 00:37:10.657 --> 00:37:17.227 is a, an amazing language and should be adopted more, talk to your companies 00:37:17.227 --> 00:37:19.957 and say, this is, this is important. 00:37:20.887 --> 00:37:25.147 This is how we give back to that community and write a big check. 00:37:26.977 --> 00:37:32.857 The other option is if, if the big checks are not the, the, the right 00:37:32.887 --> 00:37:36.247 choice for a particular company, is there are other resources that are in 00:37:36.247 --> 00:37:41.177 kind donations that if, if a company wants to support, but you know, is, is 00:37:41.197 --> 00:37:43.087 maybe still in that bootstrapping phase. 00:37:43.432 --> 00:37:49.492 Maybe they can encourage their developers, uh, in a soft way to volunteer on 00:37:49.492 --> 00:37:52.062 various, uh, projects in the community. 00:37:52.362 --> 00:37:56.082 Help make a difference, like be, be one of those companies that is there 00:37:56.292 --> 00:37:57.822 and making the community better. 00:37:58.032 --> 00:38:04.812 Don't be a company that is using all of our tools and the work of all of these 00:38:04.812 --> 00:38:06.792 volunteers and then not giving back. 00:38:07.402 --> 00:38:07.762 >> Yeah. 00:38:08.272 --> 00:38:11.382 So those are all excellent suggestions. 00:38:11.382 --> 00:38:13.272 And you touched on a lot of things in there that I want 00:38:13.272 --> 00:38:14.952 to dig into a little bit more. 00:38:15.282 --> 00:38:19.422 Uh, so I guess starting from the back there with in kind contributions. 00:38:19.482 --> 00:38:22.902 Um, so ITProTV uses Haskell. 00:38:22.962 --> 00:38:28.387 And one of the most valuable things that I've found from being a lead 00:38:28.387 --> 00:38:34.177 there is that when my team struggles with something, that's not a, you 00:38:34.177 --> 00:38:36.577 know, that's not the fault of my team. 00:38:36.757 --> 00:38:40.747 That's usually the fault of some documentation or some process or 00:38:40.777 --> 00:38:42.097 just something has gone wrong. 00:38:42.127 --> 00:38:47.407 And so it's really easy to unblock that person or unblock the team and say, 00:38:47.407 --> 00:38:48.637 okay, look, I know the answer here. 00:38:48.637 --> 00:38:52.147 Let me tell you the answer, but it's a lot more valuable to say. 00:38:53.077 --> 00:38:54.907 Oh, I know the answer. 00:38:54.937 --> 00:38:58.207 I should give this back to the community so that the next person 00:38:58.207 --> 00:38:58.837 doesn't run into this problem. 00:38:58.837 --> 00:38:59.347 >> Absolutely. 00:38:59.917 --> 00:39:01.507 And there's a few different levels of that. 00:39:01.507 --> 00:39:08.137 So I think if you, if you find a problem in Haskell and you do a Google 00:39:08.137 --> 00:39:10.447 search, you will often find results. 00:39:11.527 --> 00:39:15.067 And you'll go to a blog post or something that will say, okay, here, here's how 00:39:15.067 --> 00:39:16.597 you solve this particular problem. 00:39:17.407 --> 00:39:21.127 One of the issues is that sometimes those are like seven, 10 years 00:39:21.127 --> 00:39:24.397 old and they don't really relate to what's going on anymore. 00:39:24.817 --> 00:39:30.367 Uh, and one approach is to make a new blog post that says, okay, this whole 00:39:30.367 --> 00:39:33.817 blog post had this information and I'm updating it with this other information. 00:39:33.817 --> 00:39:34.837 And that is valuable. 00:39:34.837 --> 00:39:36.397 That is absolutely valuable to do. 00:39:37.372 --> 00:39:41.452 The next level is to try to make that more official, to try to get 00:39:41.452 --> 00:39:48.007 something onto Haskell.org or a related website where you can say, okay. 00:39:48.007 --> 00:39:49.207 I ran into this problem. 00:39:49.207 --> 00:39:51.637 I'm sure other people are going to run into this problem. 00:39:51.637 --> 00:39:53.347 Here is the correct solution. 00:39:53.347 --> 00:39:58.567 Or maybe you get onto like the functional programming Slack or the IRC, and say, 00:39:58.677 --> 00:40:01.837 I need to talk to people who really understand this area and we need to hash 00:40:01.837 --> 00:40:03.517 out what is the right solution to this? 00:40:03.967 --> 00:40:08.407 Uh, absolutely get ahold of the Haskell Foundation if you see one of these issues. 00:40:08.437 --> 00:40:11.107 Because part of what we do is connect to the right people to 00:40:11.107 --> 00:40:14.467 each other so that these problems can be solved once and for all. 00:40:14.467 --> 00:40:16.297 And that gets to my next level, which is. 00:40:17.377 --> 00:40:21.817 If this is a problem that is more fundamental to a technology. 00:40:23.257 --> 00:40:27.457 Or maybe one of the open source libraries that, that we build all 00:40:27.457 --> 00:40:29.557 of our Haskell, uh, programs on. 00:40:30.217 --> 00:40:34.597 Let's solve the problem for real, let's actually dig in and come up 00:40:34.597 --> 00:40:37.297 with what is the correct solution. 00:40:37.687 --> 00:40:40.777 And sometimes those are very non-trivial solutions. 00:40:41.167 --> 00:40:45.787 Uh, I remember something going on with, uh, uh, Postgres. 00:40:46.912 --> 00:40:50.542 And, and I'm, I'm unfortunately forgetting off the top of my head, 00:40:50.542 --> 00:40:56.242 what it was, but, you know, it's, it's one of those really subtle 00:40:56.242 --> 00:40:58.552 issues that can happen at the margins. 00:40:59.122 --> 00:41:02.482 And I think it was Matt Parsons that was saying, yeah, we ran into 00:41:02.482 --> 00:41:07.912 this and I think we're solving it in like persist, but I'm not sure. 00:41:08.392 --> 00:41:12.652 I I'm I'm I am absolutely not saying that Matt Parsons said any of that stuff. 00:41:12.802 --> 00:41:14.572 I'm trying to paraphrase. 00:41:14.572 --> 00:41:20.017 But, the point is that people were following up with some 00:41:20.017 --> 00:41:24.457 of these library authors and saying, I ran into this problem. 00:41:24.667 --> 00:41:28.027 Let's figure out what the right solution is across the board. 00:41:28.027 --> 00:41:34.687 And that is the most, the most, uh, valuable thing that you can do. 00:41:34.687 --> 00:41:39.907 And I think for, for a company, that runs into any of these problems. 00:41:40.027 --> 00:41:44.137 One of the most valuable things you can do is allow your developers to 00:41:44.137 --> 00:41:50.377 really track down these problems and, uh, you know, run them to ground, 00:41:50.467 --> 00:41:52.927 as I think it said in the military. 00:41:53.257 --> 00:41:59.227 And determine what the correct fundamental solution is and let them help make 00:41:59.227 --> 00:42:02.107 that change, help them fix it for real. 00:42:02.682 --> 00:42:04.092 >> Yeah, it's funny that you. 00:42:04.707 --> 00:42:05.547 >> Then it's done. 00:42:06.592 --> 00:42:06.982 >> Right. 00:42:07.042 --> 00:42:08.452 No one else has to worry about it. 00:42:08.962 --> 00:42:13.912 Um, it's funny that you bring up that Postgres issue because that, I think we 00:42:13.942 --> 00:42:16.872 kind of spurred that me, uh, ITProTV. 00:42:16.952 --> 00:42:18.642 >> Uh, previous, uh, Haskell Weekly. 00:42:18.642 --> 00:42:19.752 That's exactly what it was. 00:42:20.522 --> 00:42:21.822 Async exceptions, right? 00:42:22.482 --> 00:42:23.322 >> There you go. 00:42:23.322 --> 00:42:23.712 Yeah. 00:42:23.802 --> 00:42:26.952 And we ran into this problem and we kind of tilted our head and looked 00:42:26.952 --> 00:42:28.512 at it and said that that's weird. 00:42:28.602 --> 00:42:29.322 That shouldn't happen. 00:42:29.652 --> 00:42:34.932 And, uh, yeah, so we spent some time kind of running that to ground, as you said. 00:42:34.962 --> 00:42:38.982 And fortunately Matt was able to pick it up and really get to the bottom of it. 00:42:39.072 --> 00:42:42.352 Um, But, yeah, that was a great example of, we could have fixed it in our 00:42:42.352 --> 00:42:44.062 application and said, Huh, that was weird. 00:42:44.272 --> 00:42:45.382 I hope that doesn't happen again. 00:42:45.412 --> 00:42:48.922 But, uh, we decided to, you know, try to help the overall community. 00:42:48.942 --> 00:42:50.562 >> Yeah, and I think. 00:42:51.127 --> 00:42:54.487 That that is an incredible way of giving back to the community. 00:42:54.487 --> 00:42:59.677 Another way is to, uh, have like an internal library that fixes a 00:42:59.677 --> 00:43:03.577 problem, or maybe just some internal code that fixes a particular problem. 00:43:04.477 --> 00:43:08.317 Take the time to turn that into an open source library, put it out 00:43:08.317 --> 00:43:10.417 there as an open source solution. 00:43:10.777 --> 00:43:13.882 Accept contributions from people outside of the company. 00:43:14.302 --> 00:43:19.072 Uh, I I've seen this, uh, both in companies that I've worked at before, you 00:43:19.072 --> 00:43:23.002 know, SimSpaces has, uh, for instance, open source some of their libraries and 00:43:23.002 --> 00:43:24.892 given back to the community that way. 00:43:26.002 --> 00:43:27.982 But, but that's another great way of doing it. 00:43:27.982 --> 00:43:31.492 And I think this is a popular way of doing it. 00:43:31.522 --> 00:43:36.487 But, you also then have to take on the responsibility of properly 00:43:36.487 --> 00:43:37.897 maintaining those libraries. 00:43:37.897 --> 00:43:40.537 If you just kind of throw something out there and then leave 00:43:40.537 --> 00:43:42.677 it, uh, it's not as valuable. 00:43:43.727 --> 00:43:46.542 >> Right, that's like the blog post you were talking about where, okay. 00:43:46.602 --> 00:43:48.972 Seven years ago, this was how we'd solve this problem. 00:43:48.972 --> 00:43:50.947 But maybe things have changed in the meantime. 00:43:52.207 --> 00:43:54.607 Um, and then you said one thing earlier that I wanted to follow up 00:43:54.607 --> 00:43:59.347 on, which was startling to me, which is that GHC, there are no full-time 00:43:59.377 --> 00:44:01.777 maintainers or developers working on GHC. 00:44:01.867 --> 00:44:05.167 And I know that I see Ben Gamari, his name pop up very frequently. 00:44:05.167 --> 00:44:08.407 He seems to be a release manager and a core developer. 00:44:08.407 --> 00:44:09.607 He, he basically does everything. 00:44:09.607 --> 00:44:10.807 It's it's phenomenal. 00:44:11.167 --> 00:44:14.377 Um, but yeah, th th that was startling for me to hear, because 00:44:14.377 --> 00:44:19.042 we get so many improvements to GHC and it's such a good compiler. 00:44:19.042 --> 00:44:20.332 It produces good code. 00:44:20.362 --> 00:44:21.892 You know, I, I enjoy working with it. 00:44:21.982 --> 00:44:27.352 Um, so I'm just thinking of this hypothetical future where we can 00:44:27.352 --> 00:44:30.562 have somebody working on it, or many somebodies is working on it full time. 00:44:30.682 --> 00:44:31.402 That would be incredible. 00:44:31.497 --> 00:44:36.237 >> W, and we have, you know, to, to be clear, we have people like Ben that 00:44:36.417 --> 00:44:38.427 are essentially full-time working on it. 00:44:38.457 --> 00:44:41.367 Although they, they do other work, which is why I'm saying that they're 00:44:41.367 --> 00:44:43.017 not full-time on the compiler. 00:44:43.017 --> 00:44:48.727 They, they do have other responsibilities as well, but they don't, like it is not, 00:44:50.317 --> 00:44:54.607 it is not their entire full-time day job. 00:44:54.847 --> 00:44:59.407 And, uh, I, when I worked at, at Microsoft, I worked in the 00:44:59.407 --> 00:45:03.207 developer division for a while and you know, the Visual C++ 00:45:03.867 --> 00:45:07.717 team at that time was a big team. 00:45:07.957 --> 00:45:11.587 It was tens of hardcore developers. 00:45:12.097 --> 00:45:18.937 Uh, who they would, you know, and program managers and a big test team and the 00:45:18.937 --> 00:45:21.457 requirements would come in and they would think about ways that they wanted 00:45:21.457 --> 00:45:23.767 to change the compiler or the language. 00:45:23.767 --> 00:45:27.217 And they would, uh, spend a bunch of times speccing out that and 00:45:27.217 --> 00:45:31.357 figuring out test plans and then, you know, writing code and then doing 00:45:31.357 --> 00:45:33.367 big releases with golden masters. 00:45:34.657 --> 00:45:44.662 And, the, the work that the GHC team does is incredible given the size of the team 00:45:44.932 --> 00:45:46.702 and the constraints that they're under. 00:45:47.002 --> 00:45:53.092 And I think we benefit hugely from the work of, for instance, graduate 00:45:53.092 --> 00:45:56.602 students who are working on their thesis and their thesis happens to 00:45:56.602 --> 00:45:58.522 be programming language related. 00:45:58.702 --> 00:46:01.372 And so they implement some cool new thing. 00:46:01.882 --> 00:46:11.842 Um, I, yeah, Haskell and GHC are kind of a miracle under the circumstances. 00:46:11.932 --> 00:46:19.232 And, uh, there there's that image that is circulated every now and then of what, 00:46:19.232 --> 00:46:21.592 what would happen if GHC blah, blah, blah. 00:46:21.652 --> 00:46:26.632 And it's this futuristic city, futuristic, uh, image. 00:46:27.562 --> 00:46:34.507 I think that if we can get enough resources to really, we don't need, 00:46:34.597 --> 00:46:41.187 like, we don't need the same kind of team has maybe a Visual C++, right? 00:46:41.187 --> 00:46:42.217 We don't need that. 00:46:42.877 --> 00:46:47.477 But I think there are a few key roles, like I've mentioned, release manager and 00:46:48.217 --> 00:46:53.137 dev ops and a few other things where if we could get somebody doing that full 00:46:53.137 --> 00:47:04.027 time, then that allows people like ben or Moritz Angermann to leverage their time. 00:47:04.087 --> 00:47:04.837 Even more. 00:47:04.927 --> 00:47:09.397 They can concentrate more on the things that they are uniquely qualified to do, 00:47:09.997 --> 00:47:15.817 rather than the stuff that has to be done, because things aren't working today. 00:47:16.362 --> 00:47:16.722 >> Right. 00:47:17.832 --> 00:47:22.452 So if that sounds like a future that you want to be a part of listeners, then 00:47:22.992 --> 00:47:24.702 convince somebody to write a big check. 00:47:25.812 --> 00:47:26.652 >> Big, big check. 00:47:28.912 --> 00:47:32.902 >> Um, so yeah, Andrew, we've been covering a lot of topics here. 00:47:32.932 --> 00:47:36.742 We've touched on everything that I, that I wanted to bring up about the Foundation. 00:47:36.772 --> 00:47:41.212 Uh, so as we're closing up here, is there anything that you would like to talk 00:47:41.212 --> 00:47:42.982 about that I have not asked you about? 00:47:43.662 --> 00:47:45.012 >> Oh, let's see. 00:47:45.162 --> 00:47:53.692 Um, I think one of the things that we're very interested in is areas 00:47:53.692 --> 00:47:56.302 where Haskell is uniquely qualified. 00:47:57.382 --> 00:48:02.992 Has a unique value for an industry or a particular, uh, application. 00:48:03.682 --> 00:48:09.247 So, as an example, uh, we recently, uh, uh, announced that we have 00:48:09.307 --> 00:48:11.307 affiliated with the Clash language. 00:48:11.487 --> 00:48:20.127 And Clash is a programming language, which is in Haskell, that allows you to create 00:48:20.157 --> 00:48:26.487 hardware designs by writing Haskell code, using their libraries and their compilers. 00:48:27.177 --> 00:48:32.877 Uh, functional language functional programming seems to uniquely qualified to 00:48:32.877 --> 00:48:40.132 do hardware, because it's the same kind of thought the same kind of, uh, of approach. 00:48:41.572 --> 00:48:43.852 I think that there's some others, you know, we have 00:48:44.242 --> 00:48:46.702 inroads in financial software. 00:48:46.942 --> 00:48:51.412 Uh, if somebody is going to write a compiler, I think Haskell is clearly 00:48:51.412 --> 00:48:53.282 the right language to write a compiler. 00:48:53.992 --> 00:48:55.852 But there's, there's gotta be others. 00:48:55.882 --> 00:48:56.632 And I think. 00:48:57.082 --> 00:49:02.422 If you, you know, calling back to the STM conversation, anything doing 00:49:02.422 --> 00:49:04.252 parallel, concurrent programming. 00:49:04.732 --> 00:49:12.982 Uh, and I think that we, we have the opportunity to showcase Haskell as the 00:49:12.982 --> 00:49:15.502 premier language in different areas. 00:49:15.502 --> 00:49:18.922 And, uh, and I encourage your listeners to think about that. 00:49:18.982 --> 00:49:22.822 Like, what is the thing that the combinations of the Haskell 00:49:23.422 --> 00:49:26.632 programming language and the runtime. 00:49:27.127 --> 00:49:30.757 Make essentially trivial, which is actually very 00:49:30.757 --> 00:49:32.077 difficult in other languages. 00:49:32.077 --> 00:49:34.687 Let us know because we are looking for those. 00:49:35.047 --> 00:49:40.837 Uh, and I, I am incredibly excited about some of the projects that I'm seeing, that 00:49:40.837 --> 00:49:43.087 I had no idea existed in the community. 00:49:44.212 --> 00:49:47.302 >> And are you looking for something along the lines of 00:49:47.302 --> 00:49:49.612 like a case study, like Clash? 00:49:49.612 --> 00:49:52.612 You know, this is a good example of how Haskell can be leveraged to do 00:49:52.612 --> 00:49:56.587 something that it's uniquely, uh, You know, it, it can accomplish. 00:49:56.647 --> 00:50:01.897 Or are you looking for something like Haskell could be used in this vertical or 00:50:01.897 --> 00:50:05.257 this industry, but it's not and why not? 00:50:05.257 --> 00:50:06.027 Let's dig into that. 00:50:06.287 --> 00:50:06.897 Or maybe both? 00:50:06.987 --> 00:50:07.527 >> Both of those. 00:50:07.542 --> 00:50:08.292 Absolutely. 00:50:08.322 --> 00:50:09.552 And, uh, if. 00:50:10.477 --> 00:50:16.957 If you are very excited about some emerging market, some emerging 00:50:16.957 --> 00:50:21.097 technology, that really isn't on anybody's radar yet, but you think would be 00:50:21.097 --> 00:50:24.787 uniquely, uh, applicable for Haskell. 00:50:25.207 --> 00:50:25.967 Uh, let me know. 00:50:26.277 --> 00:50:30.217 Those are what we're looking for, because if we can get in early, we can 00:50:30.217 --> 00:50:33.937 be, you can, we can have the language be synonymous with a particular market. 00:50:34.642 --> 00:50:37.312 And then the more of those that we get to, the easier it is to 00:50:37.312 --> 00:50:43.252 sell into existing markets and say, look at this, this and this. 00:50:43.822 --> 00:50:46.402 They're using Haskell almost exclusively. 00:50:46.612 --> 00:50:47.932 And they're kicking butt. 00:50:48.952 --> 00:50:50.932 You should use Haskell too, for what you're doing. 00:50:51.817 --> 00:50:52.357 >> I like it. 00:50:53.277 --> 00:50:57.807 So you mentioned that people should let you know when they find things like this. 00:50:57.837 --> 00:51:01.857 Uh, how should people contact you and/or the Foundation at large? 00:51:02.692 --> 00:51:06.462 >> My, my email address is andrew@haskell.foundation. 00:51:06.852 --> 00:51:11.232 Or, uh, if you want a sort of more generic, uh, contact, then 00:51:11.232 --> 00:51:13.122 contact@haskell.foundation. 00:51:13.542 --> 00:51:22.552 I'm also often on uh FP Slack, the Zulip, uh, IRC, uh, Discourse. 00:51:22.822 --> 00:51:24.442 I I'm all over the place. 00:51:24.502 --> 00:51:26.302 Uh, often as MyShoggoth.. 00:51:27.062 --> 00:51:29.067 >> Yeah, I was curious about that handle. 00:51:29.067 --> 00:51:30.777 Could you explain what that means? 00:51:30.817 --> 00:51:38.172 >> So a shoggoth is a horror from the elder gods of HP Lovecraft, uh, fame. 00:51:38.442 --> 00:51:41.152 And, where it comes from. 00:51:41.302 --> 00:51:44.782 So like, like a lot of online handles, they come from when I was much younger. 00:51:45.382 --> 00:51:48.472 Uh, and they kind of just stick around for a long time. 00:51:48.502 --> 00:51:54.892 But, uh, a friend of mine, I think still owns shoggoths.com. 00:51:55.162 --> 00:51:57.742 And so I couldn't get that one anymore, I couldn't talk him out of it. 00:51:59.062 --> 00:52:02.482 And this was early two thousands. 00:52:02.512 --> 00:52:07.552 So this was when like Windows XP came out and it had my documents, my 00:52:07.552 --> 00:52:09.352 pictures, my, this, my, this, my, this. 00:52:09.772 --> 00:52:13.142 And I thought it was really funny to have my shoggoth. 00:52:13.612 --> 00:52:18.442 Like this very friendly version of this, this thing that is supposed to 00:52:18.442 --> 00:52:20.912 be like insanity, creating horrible. 00:52:21.967 --> 00:52:23.107 And it just stuck with me. 00:52:23.107 --> 00:52:27.997 And one of the nice things is that, uh, obviously nobody else uses this handle. 00:52:27.997 --> 00:52:29.707 So it's very easy for me to get. 00:52:29.707 --> 00:52:33.397 But that's where that's my handle on Twitter and basically 00:52:33.397 --> 00:52:35.047 any social media that I use. 00:52:35.437 --> 00:52:39.217 And, uh, I, yeah, that's, that's where that comes from. 00:52:39.967 --> 00:52:41.857 And that's also my personal website. 00:52:44.487 --> 00:52:47.997 >> Uh, well, I will do my best to include as many links as I can 00:52:47.997 --> 00:52:51.057 in the show notes for this episode to get to those various places. 00:52:51.057 --> 00:52:51.867 But there were a lot. 00:52:52.417 --> 00:52:56.107 Um, so yeah, Andrew, thank you so much for being on the show today. 00:52:56.107 --> 00:52:57.337 This has been excellent. 00:52:57.367 --> 00:52:59.767 And, uh, it's just been great talking with you. 00:52:59.857 --> 00:53:00.397 >> Thank you. 00:53:00.397 --> 00:53:03.487 I appreciate this opportunity and this has been a lot of fun. 00:53:04.523 --> 00:53:06.383 >> That does it for us this week. 00:53:06.893 --> 00:53:09.563 Thank you for listening to the Haskell Weekly podcast. 00:53:09.683 --> 00:53:11.503 I've been your host, taylor Fausak. 00:53:11.843 --> 00:53:13.823 And with me today was Andrew Boardman. 00:53:14.423 --> 00:53:17.723 If you want to find out more about us, please check out our website, 00:53:17.753 --> 00:53:19.943 which is HaskellWeekly.News. 00:53:20.490 --> 00:53:25.200 This week, we are brought to you by our employer, ITProTV, the e-learning 00:53:25.230 --> 00:53:27.240 platform for IT professionals. 00:53:27.720 --> 00:53:32.700 Use the promo code HaskellWeekly30 at checkout to get 30% off the 00:53:32.700 --> 00:53:34.230 lifetime of your subscription. 00:53:34.740 --> 00:53:38.040 Head over to ITPro.TV to get started today. 00:53:38.583 --> 00:53:40.713 Thanks for joining us and we'll see you next week.